MBSB community member Artemis sent in the following:
Hi Laura,
I would like to ask for your opinion in regards to codes of conduct that promote decency and sportsmanship in the art of Muay Thai.
A friend of mine who is a fighter uses an aggressive fighting style that unsettles me. When he fights he aims to KO his opponent in the first round causing significant pain and injury. This has become his trademark and there are usually a group of Western spectators who are there in support of him who go wild and praise him as a good fighter. The spectators change from month to month as they are tourists passing through, profits are made from selling the tickets to the tourists with a small percentage going to the fighter. He is not connected to any of the gyms rather the tickets are sold through the resort where he works.
I have not seen the same style of fighting from any others, if the opponents are unmatched usually the better fighter will earn his/her points and the fight will end without any drama or significant injuries. Having seen one of his opponents post fight with multiple stitches that will surely cause long term scarring it made me question the sport and wonder what is taught in training as acceptable. In another example an opponent of his was a young boy who was clearly no match for him in experience or weight. The young boy hobbled off the ring in agony after a deathly kick.
I know that he views himself as too old to be fighting and he does not train so his fitness levels are questionable. To be fair to him I’m not sure if he feels that he cannot say no to the fights in the first place and is simply protecting himself from injuries as he is not training. I can’t help but wonder are the few minutes of glory worth it? Or do I just not get it? I would just like to ask your opinion as this is something that has bothered me for some time, thank you for taking the time to read this.
I thought I’d take the opportunity to share my thoughts and also to open up the discussion to other nak muays who have spent time in Muay Thai gyms in Thailand.
Hi Artemis,
I’ll begin with stating that the following is reflective of both my teachings and my experiences in Muay Thai in Thailand. Others may have been taught and experienced otherwise, but here it is, (in general) –
As a nak muay I was taught that respect is fundamental in the sport as is adherence to the established hierarchy. In terms of hierarchy within a gym, in order:
- the owner,
- the trainers
- and the fighters.
Within that, there may be other people who are given a higher esteem than others, for example, if there is a promoter (who is neither the owner nor a trainer), or a matchmaker, and frankly, there was one guy in a gym that I spent significant time in whose role I never quite understood. I saw him as an enforcer. The man who kept people in line….he fit in somewhere above the trainers.
Gyms are also reflective of general Thai hierarchies (the older fighters are given more esteem than the younger, etc.). In regards to respect between fighters from competing gyms there is no mean mugging, bullying, or disrespectful antics that is completely commonplace if not encouraged in fight sports in the West. It doesn’t mean everyone likes one another, but overt aggression between fighters outside of the ring is frowned upon if not grounds for dismissal. Nak muays are also taught humility (generally).
That being said, Muay Thai in the ring is a war.
As long as fighters work within the rules of the sport, they’re there to devastate their opponent. To give you an example, one of my trainers taught me two different types of elbows, one was a fast, slicing elbow meant to cut across someone’s forehead, ideally to blind them with their own blood and the other to knock them out. Some people get stitches and some are pulled out of the ring on a stretcher.
A huge component of Muay Thai is the gambling. Outside of tourist areas (and perhaps inside as well), gambling has kept the sport alive and thus has effected the game. The first round is generally a time for fighters to feel one another out and for gamblers to check out what is going on and start placing their bets. Some fighters do become aggressive in the first round looking for a KO but from my experience, it isn’t remotely the norm.
Exciting fights where anything can happen make the gamblers happy, which makes the promoter happy, which makes the gyms and the fighters happy because they get to come back. The relationship is symbiotic. It’s not uncommon for gamblers to tell fighters if they knock someone out in a specific round they’ll receive a substantial tip.
Thais generally experience the sport as spectators differently than foreign, particularly Western audiences.
Where Western audiences are apt to find aggression exciting, Thais appreciate ring intelligence and beautiful technique in ways a lot of Western audiences don’t get. It’s one of the reasons Westerners who are new to Muay Thai become baffled at who wins a Muay Thai fight on points. Fighters who throw the most weapons and who look dominant to Western eyes don’t always win. Aggressive doesn’t always equate to best.
My experience with fights for the tourist market occurred in Chiang Mai. It was mentioned to me on more than one occasion from Thai fighters that if the main audience was tourists (i.e. in beer bars), often fighters who found themselves in the ring with friends as opponents wouldn’t fight at full capacity. They knew and respected that the other fighter may have to fight again soon, so although they were there to win, they weren’t there to devastate. Tourists got their Muay Thai, the Thais got paid and everyone left happy.
I highly suspect your friend is there to keep the tourists happy. If he can deliver a fighting style that caters to the Western eye, promote the resort and get paid well….I can see the draw in that, particularly if he can walk out of the ring with little to no damage. I also don’t doubt your thoughts that he feels he can’t say no to the fights.
Although I don’t know his relationship with the resort, there can easily be a hierarchy within it which is reflective of Thai society as a whole. Note, the main motivation behind Muay Thai in Thailand is money. Most Thai fighters make at most, enough money to get by over the course of their careers and sustain a lot of damage, including long-term damage in the process. In addition, most tend to have few job prospects once their Muay Thai careers are over. If he makes decent money in these fights and gets additional perks (i.e. tourists treating him like a rock star because he’s knocking people out so quickly, etc.) without having to train at all and maintain a good relationship with his employers at the resort…it may beat his other options.
Thanks Artemis for writing in. If you have anything to add or if any of this resonates with you, I’d love to hear about it in the comments.
How about the rest of you?
Are there any nak muays who have trained in Thailand who want to add to this?
What’s your take on sportsmanship in Muay Thai?
I was going to add my thoughts but I really like the encapsulation you write here:
“They knew and respected that the other fighter may have to fight again soon, so although they were there to win, they weren’t there to devastate. Tourists got their muay thai, the Thais got paid and everyone left happy.”
I think there’s a tacit understanding that as career journeymen, there’s no point in inflicting nasty injuries that can really screw up someone’s livelihood for a few weeks/months, especially since these guys fight so frequently. And if you get a rep for being nasty like that, it’s only a matter of time before someone else decides to that to you.
I’ve seen fights – even major headlines at Omnoi , where if one of the fighters clearly outclasses the other in the early rounds, they won’t go for a KO but just use technique and skill to control the fight to the end without hurting the other too badly. Personally I think it’s a good, honourable old school mind set that really differs from the MMA culture of today where fighters are paid for “knockout of the night” and motivated to be brutal assassins. I think old school Thai’s get it, like you said – but I think this is rapidly changing, sadly.
I forgot to mention – the point is: if you get an opponent that’s clearly outclassed, and they end up “cruising” to the end – the old school Thai crowd “gets it”. As you mentioned , they also understand that it’s a fight, but not to the death and apprecaite skill and technique much more than a KO. Unless of course, in a typical Thai fashion, the opponent is a foreigner 🙂
Z, I agree with everything you’ve posted. Absolutely! Although I have seen foreigners be treated with the same respect as Thais in the ring (re: when outclassed)…..but I’ve also seen what you’re talking about too.
Great post and very true to form! There are a few points I would like to add…
The late 1980’s and early 1990’s were known as the Golden Era of Muay Thai in Thailand. This time saw fast pace fights from the opening bell and fighters giving their all. The current generation of fighters in Bangkok are under a lot of criticism for their lazy style (just doing to the bare minimum to win). However, even during the golden era TKOs and KOs were not as common as you see in Muay Thai for tourists, this was because of the impeccable match making and millions of baht being gambled within the stadiums in a single night.
Therefore while there is a certain truth to your statement,
“They knew and respected that the other fighter may have to fight again soon, so although they were there to win, they weren’t there to devastate. Tourists got their muay thai, the Thais got paid and everyone left happy.”
Muay Thai is currently not in its prime, and this is a widely accepted idea that I know ldf is very familiar with*. Furthermore, Thai fighters train to withstand such punishment. So again, while I still see Muay Thai in Thailand with more sportsmanship and decentcy than that in North America, it is good to apply these ideas to a historical stand point
Even now, gamblers help (to a certain extent*) keep fights even in Thailand. Usually fights for tourists are not seriously gambled on nor are Muay Farang fighters. When I would fight in Bangkok my gym would gamble just a few thousand baht on me, as we would never knew who I was fighting. When I moved to Isarn, and was matched up with fighters a head of time my team would put up 30,000 to 50,000 gambling pot for the fight. (No pressure).
*Gambling does create it’s fair amount of corruption too, but that is a whole other topic.
*ldf I would love for you to interview some fighters from this golden era and get their take on the current situation. I have a few friends and brothers who were champions during this time and it is fascinating to hear their point of view as they are still closely involved in the sport.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.
The explanation you have given about my friend fighting to keep the tourists happy makes a lot of sense . By the time fight night comes around, the resort will have organised a mini ‘fan club’ of tourists waiting to see the guy KO in the first few minutes. Some of the tourists partake in gambling also.
“They knew and respected that the other fighter may have to fight again soon, so although they were there to win, they weren’t there to devastate. Tourists got their muay thai, the Thais got paid and everyone left happy.”
This is exactly the mentality that I thought was the ‘right’ way to fight, but I guess I am not looking at the total picture. The fighters who fought in this way did not have a Western fan club spectating.
Incidentally it is the elbow that he uses to KO, and the elbow slice that you describe matches the stitches over the eyebrow.
I am comforted by your explanation, I was beginning to think my friend was a tyrant with zero empathy. I guess I am too much of a wuss for this game……!
Great explanation I totally agree.
My mindset when I go in the ring is “kill or be killed” and even though that might sound savage and barbaric, without it I won’t have the adrenaline and I will fight more passively and feel more pain… which is not pleasant at all. Also whoever steps in the ring knows the dangers of the sport and are willing to get hurt in order to come out the victor.
As long as the Westerner or fighter isn’t talking shit, showing off or acting like an arrogant prick, I don’t see anything wrong with going for a devastating KO or trying to seriously hurt their opponent… it’s part of the sport!
‘I don’t see anything wrong with going for a devastating KO or trying to seriously hurt their opponent’ – yikes, I do…..but then I don’t do Muay Thai!
Muay thai is a sport and fighters fight to win. If they need to hurt their opponents to win, so be it. I think most fighters feel fear inside the ring and compensate by having too much aggression or too little emotion. It;s no good having feelings for your opponent during the fight because the other guy may not be that friendly to you. And if you look at it closely, the thais will often attempt to kick the downed opponent or elbow him when both are falling to the ground. Definitely not being very nice.
Muay Thai is about destroying another human being, just like many other Martial Arts. If you’re an empathic person, stay away of it.
It’s as simple as that.
I’m a former fighter and that’s basically everything you can say about it.